Are you an Individualist or a Collectivist

[J.Q. Citizen]

During the silence that has ensued on the political forum lately, I have spent some time contemplating the differences in people that make up for the diverse opinions we have seen in these threads. I have perused a variety of opinions and thoughts available on the internet and determined what I believe is the point of demarcation that is the foundation on which most people build their particular political perspective. I believe that there are essentially two fundamental concepts and that everything after that becomes shades of gray where experience, emotions and other aspects of life tend to twine and overlap. I find this to be an interesting intellectual exercise.

The concept is as follows; Which is MORE important? Are we individuals with definite and inherent rights or are we part of a huge collective that is more important than the individual? The answer cannot be "both" because at this point we are simply determining which is more important. The shades of gray come into play further down the line.

If you are a collectivist then you believe it is acceptable to infringe on the rights of the individual based on your perception of the "common good".

If you are an individualist then you believe that the rights of the individual should be preserved despite the fact that it may be contrary or conflict with what some perceive as the "common good".

Remember, this is not about the implementation of policy, it is simply the foundation on which policies should be based.

I would appreciate it if anyone who reads this would answer the poll question but I also highly encourage anyone who has any thoughts on this to add your own perspective.

[tigertails]

During the silence that has ensued on the political forum lately, I have spent some time contemplating the differences in people that make up for the diverse opinions we have seen in these threads. I have perused a variety of opinions and thoughts available on the internet and determined what I believe is the point of demarcation that is the foundation on which most people build their particular political perspective. I believe that there are essentially two fundamental concepts and that everything after that becomes shades of gray where experience, emotions and other aspects of life tend to twine and overlap. I find this to be an interesting intellectual exercise.

The concept is as follows; Which is MORE important? Are we individuals with definite and inherent rights or are we part of a huge collective that is more important than the individual? The answer cannot be "both" because at this point we are simply determining which is more important. The shades of gray come into play further down the line.

If you are a collectivist then you believe it is acceptable to infringe on the rights of the individual based on your perception of the "common good".

If you are an individualist then you believe that the rights of the individual should be preserved despite the fact that it may be contrary or conflict with what some perceive as the "common good".

Remember, this is not about the implementation of policy, it is simply the foundation on which policies should be based.

I would appreciate it if anyone who reads this would answer the poll question but I also highly encourage anyone who has any thoughts on this to add your own perspective.

Comes down to the old leberal or consevative choise to choose. But for me it is simple. I was never raised in just a black or white world. There was always a middle grown or grey area to work in. So for me it is simple I am a conservative by nature but do believe in helping those that need the help but saying to **** with those that just want free handouts and not want to help their selves. Just do not want the government telling me what I have to do and what will be done with my money. But then I am a contadiction to myself. I solid union menber that is a republican. Kinda like military intelegance.

can not honestly choose that one fer ya

Just the view of an old man that never learned to drink the kool-aide.

[J.Q. Citizen]

[QUOTE=tigertails;1656]
Comes down to the old leberal or consevative choise to choose. But for me it is simple. I was never raised in just a black or white world. There was always a middle grown or grey area to work in. So for me it is simple I am a conservative by nature but do believe in helping those that need the help but saying to **** with those that just want free handouts and not want to help their selves. Just do not want the government telling me what I have to do and what will be done with my money. But then I am a contadiction to myself. I solid union menber that is a republican. Kinda like military intelegance.

can not honestly choose that one fer ya

Just the view of an old man that never learned to drink the kool-aide.
Hey tigertails, great to see another voice on the boards.

You've actually illustrated what I was afraid would be a flaw with my original post. What I wanted to get across was that my question has nothing to do with how things necessarily turn out down the road. I understand that you believe you are a contradiction but that was not what I was trying to find out. Since I have a background in computer programming, the absolute best example I could come up with would involve the concepts of design, coding and outputs. But I may be able to come up with one that makes more sense to everyone using an example of a job I used to have.

Suppose you are the owner of a factory that produces RV's. You have the task of deciding how to design your assembly line. You have to choose between deciding if your assembly line will produce the longest possible chassis or one that produces the shortest possible chassis. You know that you can cut down a large chassis or add to a small chassis. So, based on what you decide is the most cost efficient, you have to decide which design is MORE satisfactory to your bottom line.

Similarly, for my question, you have to ignore, for the moment, how things may turn out down the road. The question is which is MORE important. Is it more important to focus on the individual or more important to focus on the collective or group.

I do understand the conflict. And how you answer WILL determine how you answer other questions down the line so I guess an example may help to illustrate it. I am an individualist. I believe that each individual has certain inherent rights. Among those, I believe that I have the right to protect myself including any reasonable tool to accomplish that. So, as an individualist, I believe that I have the right to own a gun and use that gun to protect myself and my family. A collectivist will point out that many lives could be saved if guns were not allowed and therefore has a right to take my gun away.

So yes, in this case, the root belief is a black and white issue. The lines are still clear. Either you believe that the right of the individual takes precedence or you believe the rights of the group takes precedence. Things may overlap later but at this point a distinction must be made.

Does that help?

[tigertails]

((((( You've actually illustrated what I was afraid would be a flaw with my original post. What I wanted to get across was that my question has nothing to do with how things necessarily turn out down the road. I understand that you believe you are a contradiction but that was not what I was trying to find out. Since I have a background in computer programming, the absolute best example I could come up with would involve the concepts of design, coding and outputs. But I may be able to come up with one that makes more sense to everyone using an example of a job I used to have. ))))

((((( Suppose you are the owner of a factory that produces RV's. You have the task of deciding how to design your assembly line. You have to choose between deciding if your assembly line will produce the longest possible chassis or one that produces the shortest possible chassis. You know that you can cut down a large chassis or add to a small chassis. So, based on what you decide is the most cost efficient, you have to decide which design is MORE satisfactory to your bottom line. )))))

I, as an individual, will make my own an final decision on the size of the chassis but I will take a look at the collective inelegance and knowledge of those around me and my advisors. But the bottom line is I will do what I feel is best for the bottom line and survival of the business.

(((((( Similarly, for my question, you have to ignore, for the moment, how things may turn out down the road. The question is which is MORE important. Is it more important to focus on the individual or more important to focus on the collective or group.))))))


It is important to take the collective advice from many trusted and knowledgeable people into consideration before making any decision . But in the long run I will do what I feel is best for me as an individual. And hope that my gut instinct is correct.


(((((( I do understand the conflict. And how you answer WILL determine how you answer other questions down the line so I guess an example may help to illustrate it. I am an individualist. I believe that each individual has certain inherent rights. Among those, I believe that I have the right to protect myself including any reasonable tool to accomplish that. So, as an individualist, I believe that I have the right to own a gun and use that gun to protect myself and my family. A collectivist will point out that many lives could be saved if guns were not allowed and therefore has a right to take my gun away.))))))

Please think of this in my response. I grew up around guns as a child, I never know anyone ever killed by a gun. Never saw a gun kill anyone before. Now the first time I ever see a gun load its self, stant up and point, lock on a target and then fire, without a human around, then i will vote to ban all guns.

(((((( So yes, in this case, the root belief is a black and white issue. The lines are still clear. Either you believe that the right of the individual takes precedence or you believe the rights of the group takes precedence. Things may overlap later but at this point a distinction must be made.))))))

Now there is no where in the constitution that sais we have the god given right to any and everything we want. We have the right to try and to earn what we want in a fair society and environment. The role of the government is to basically provide for the defense of the country and not to dictate each and every choice that we make. I do not know you or anyone else on this board but that does not mean that I have to except what any one said as the gospel and believe it. What is good for the board may not be good for you or I , so in that case I have the right to leave and seek other message boards or places to go. I am sure that the creator of this board has the final say so on if what we say should be band and that is their right in doing so because it is there board. Do not like it? Then I ( we ) should go elsewhere and create our own. That is our right. Not telling the owner that they must conform to what we say or loose what they created to start with. So for this I must say that for a black and white issue, I would have to say I am an individualist . I do not want the government , or big brother , dictating what I have to do all the time and taking away my rights to pursue happiness.

(((((( Does that help? ))))))

That did help for me. Just remember I am not the sharpest knife in the box and got to take a little time to make sure of what i am thinking and saying first.

As I always learned from my family. One can not help anyone else until you can stand on your own two feet first. An individualist will know that.

Just the opinion of an old man that never drank the kool-aide. An individgual will not. The colectivists will.

[J.Q. Citizen]

((((( You've actually illustrated what I was afraid would be a flaw with my original post. What I wanted to get across was that my question has nothing to do with how things necessarily turn out down the road. I understand that you believe you are a contradiction but that was not what I was trying to find out. Since I have a background in computer programming, the absolute best example I could come up with would involve the concepts of design, coding and outputs. But I may be able to come up with one that makes more sense to everyone using an example of a job I used to have. ))))

((((( Suppose you are the owner of a factory that produces RV's. You have the task of deciding how to design your assembly line. You have to choose between deciding if your assembly line will produce the longest possible chassis or one that produces the shortest possible chassis. You know that you can cut down a large chassis or add to a small chassis. So, based on what you decide is the most cost efficient, you have to decide which design is MORE satisfactory to your bottom line. )))))

I, as an individual, will make my own an final decision on the size of the chassis but I will take a look at the collective inelegance and knowledge of those around me and my advisors. But the bottom line is I will do what I feel is best for the bottom line and survival of the business.

(((((( Similarly, for my question, you have to ignore, for the moment, how things may turn out down the road. The question is which is MORE important. Is it more important to focus on the individual or more important to focus on the collective or group.))))))


It is important to take the collective advice from many trusted and knowledgeable people into consideration before making any decision . But in the long run I will do what I feel is best for me as an individual. And hope that my gut instinct is correct.


(((((( I do understand the conflict. And how you answer WILL determine how you answer other questions down the line so I guess an example may help to illustrate it. I am an individualist. I believe that each individual has certain inherent rights. Among those, I believe that I have the right to protect myself including any reasonable tool to accomplish that. So, as an individualist, I believe that I have the right to own a gun and use that gun to protect myself and my family. A collectivist will point out that many lives could be saved if guns were not allowed and therefore has a right to take my gun away.))))))

Please think of this in my response. I grew up around guns as a child, I never know anyone ever killed by a gun. Never saw a gun kill anyone before. Now the first time I ever see a gun load its self, stant up and point, lock on a target and then fire, without a human around, then i will vote to ban all guns.

(((((( So yes, in this case, the root belief is a black and white issue. The lines are still clear. Either you believe that the right of the individual takes precedence or you believe the rights of the group takes precedence. Things may overlap later but at this point a distinction must be made.))))))

Now there is no where in the constitution that sais we have the god given right to any and everything we want. We have the right to try and to earn what we want in a fair society and environment. The role of the government is to basically provide for the defense of the country and not to dictate each and every choice that we make. I do not know you or anyone else on this board but that does not mean that I have to except what any one said as the gospel and believe it. What is good for the board may not be good for you or I , so in that case I have the right to leave and seek other message boards or places to go. I am sure that the creator of this board has the final say so on if what we say should be band and that is their right in doing so because it is there board. Do not like it? Then I ( we ) should go elsewhere and create our own. That is our right. Not telling the owner that they must conform to what we say or loose what they created to start with. So for this I must say that for a black and white issue, I would have to say I am an individualist . I do not want the government , or big brother , dictating what I have to do all the time and taking away my rights to pursue happiness.

(((((( Does that help? ))))))

That did help for me. Just remember I am not the sharpest knife in the box and got to take a little time to make sure of what i am thinking and saying first.

As I always learned from my family. One can not help anyone else until you can stand on your own two feet first. An individualist will know that.

Just the opinion of an old man that never drank the kool-aide. An individgual will not. The colectivists will.

I'm going to go out on a limb here tigertails and put you in the individualist camp :) Virtually everything you said indicates that your fundamental belief is that it is the rights of the individual which should not be infringed.

[tigertails]

I'm going to go out on a limb here tigertails and put you in the individualist camp Virtually everything you said indicates that your fundamental belief is that it is the rights of the individual which should not be infringed.

If I was to be placed in a camp of indivigual or collective then that would be a safe bet to choose.

[kmcgraw5]

Interesting and spot-on commentary by Shelby Steele in the WSJ today, sort of along these lines. Very thought-provoking and a sad commentary on the state of the minority community in this country today...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123716282469235861.html

[J.Q. Citizen]

Interesting and spot-on commentary by Shelby Steele in the WSJ today, sort of along these lines. Very thought-provoking and a sad commentary on the state of the minority community in this country today...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123716282469235861.html
Excellent read Kevin. Thanks. I join you in encouraging everyone to read this article written from the perspective of an author who is, himself, a minority.

[J.Q. Citizen]

I'm going to go out on a limb here tigertails and put you in the individualist camp Virtually everything you said indicates that your fundamental belief is that it is the rights of the individual which should not be infringed.

If I was to be placed in a camp of indivigual or collective then that would be a safe bet to choose.

Well, welcome aboard tiger :)

Seriously though, I am not attempting to "classify" people as such. It is simply my belief that everyone just naturally falls into one camp or the other and I was trying to encourage each person to decide for themselves which one applies to them. I believe that this is as much of an inherently defining line as is gender but with less of an obvious distinction.